The Doors

UnFreeZe/FreeFUn/glacius Game Servers forum.

how do you prefer the doors at q3dm8/14 on UnFreeZe1/2?

Poll ended at Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:44

always open
2
9%
normal mode
20
91%
 
Total votes: 22

Karen
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The Doors

Post by Karen »

I recently noticed that on some maps (Jesus map, pool map, maybe more) all doors are always-open. We have just discussed it in-game and the players present who had an opinion about it mostly agreed that doors actually are some tactical in-game element... e.g. you could assemble a bunch behind it on Jesus map before storming into the room, thoughts on visibility, etc ...

Additionally, Deva's secret hide spot was mentioned... and it was suggested to be unlocked (again)... as it is an all-too-easy-to-take-out camping spot, so no serious danger for game play here.

Adminless, I might have missed some discussion maybe... but, what is the exact idea of leaving the doors always-open? I would appreciate an explanation to get a better understanding... which might help me to digest this change. As you might read from this, I am not too happy with this change but it's just my two cents... don't want to complain too much for now... also, perhaps community has more thoughts on that...?
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Re: The Doors

Post by adminless »

the Thursday 3 of November of 2022 at 21:48:40 CET (UTC+01) notorious player and team leader heero-2b while playing for team over the second map (q3dm14, team over pick) against former 2021 lineal champions ilm on the opening round of the currently on-going UnFreeZe League Fall 22 spent like half a hour looking at a closed door and shooting bullets at it in the hopes of turning around a game they ended up conceding 7:10 in a event that caused him great disconfront and ultimately contributed to his resignation from the game that night something that played a role on their debut 3:0 loss. that was obviously something that needed to be corrected right on the spot as it happened and not even a single q3dm14 game more could ever take place before those doors were open at all times so at least people could have a (slightly higher) chance to engage there when deadlocks like those take place and overall improve the quality of those competitive games so yes basically I made all the doors at any of the maps that play competitively open at all times which yes essentially just corresponds with q3dm14 and q3dm8 which are the only ones featuring doors on the tournaments pool (which btw it just come to confirm the assumption that indeed doors and competitive games do not mix well together). all the rest remained unchanged (doors on non-competitive maps) and I don't see any reason to now "unlock" the hidden spot on q3dm11 when it was precisely locked for good reason (people exploited it big time, they hide there, they hide bodies there all the time, all sorts of meaningless shit that ruined the game).

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Karen
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Re: The Doors

Post by Karen »

Would it be possible to apply this patch to maps on ranked server only then... for best of both worlds? That way competitive players have training opportunity and regular players used to the original do not have to change habits?
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Re: The Doors

Post by adminless »

yes possible it's but I think it's evident the solution that provides a better game play is the one with the open doors so I think it's definitively a improvement to the overall game play of at least those two competitive maps (q3dm8/q3dm14, I repeat, the rest remains unchanged) even for a casual public setting beside let's not forget the guys at the tournaments do play (and train) as well on the pubs so I see no reason to change that back to something proven for a fact to be a worse option.
RH
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Re: The Doors

Post by RH »

I strongly disagree that doors are not competitive.

DM14 has a long history as being a really high level competitive tdm map, and the doors were never a problem. Its a little defensive between the two sides of quad, but the door has very little to do with that.

DM8, zero issues with the doors. It is not a serious map IMO, but they aren't even placed in horrible spots. They mostly just cut down some long range sight lines.

Just look at pro-t4 in duel. The doors MAKE the map with all the fakes and swapping to MG to open up sight lines and stuff.

You can open doors at a distance with a single MG bullet, this is intended. Doors can be used to fake sounds, they can be used to set up traps, they can be used to make an area safer from cross map shots, and more. They are on the map on purpose.

If some one was playing in a competitive game and had an issue with the doors, then THEY are the problem and not the doors on the maps. I don't see any reason to make such a huge game changing modification like that off of bad information.

If you want to make a change like this because you don't like doors then fine, but don't say it's because they are bad for competition.
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Re: The Doors

Post by adminless »

tdm/duel is not ftag and although UnFreeZe do obviously borrow elements from all of that (as well as ra3, ql and pretty much everything else btw) is neither any of them, it's something else. what can not be a issue for tdm or anything else can be here and the other way around. well at least we agree that q3dm14 is kind of a defensive map or at least one that allows for a strong defensive game (I mean, as displayed on the video) and the doors clearly contribute to that defensive element therefor "removing" them (making them open at all times) makes in essence the map less defensive which is obviously a good thing and what the guys that show up at the events here (not on the masters, that's a different thing) look forward every night (not so defensive games). yes I agree that the change at q3dm8 can probably be "random" as doors are not such a big issue there as on q3dm14 but just as I said if you look at the map pool that runs there (again not on the masters thing, not anywhere else) absolutely none of the maps features a single door as well as most of the well known Rocket Arena 3 ones which is probably a thing a lot more similar to this. I haven't designed those maps but my guess is that if they don't may be it's for a reason thus I felt that the most appropriate for consistence was just to remove them from q3dm8 as well. at the end of the day just as you said, it's just a map more from the pool, it's not like it's the number one top decider map of the tournament or anything. it's not such a big a deal.
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Re: The Doors

Post by RH »

Okay, so you are removing them because you don't like doors. Just say that then.

Saying doors are not competitive is just completely false. They add a lot of important gameplay elements. Most basic being they make a noise so people can't silently move through parts of the map. That noise opens up the option to fake noises to trick opponents by shooting doors. It also cuts sight lines giving temporary protection and changes what type of weapons might be effective to engage with there. The fights can be changed in a way where weapon combos are required or things like plasma can be favored more to keep the door open while dishing out damage. Denying visible information also means they make good ambush spots. They do a lot that is positive and adds to the game, providing more options and depth to players who want to use them effectively.

I think removing them because you want people to rush through those areas more is a poor take. It just limits how people can play. Plus good players will treat a chokepoint with a similar amount of caution and not rush through it anyway, hence why I said dm14 is defensive but it has nothing to do with the doors. DM14 is just a very tight map with a lot of corners that can mean you take guaranteed damage trying to move through certain parts.
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Re: The Doors

Post by adminless »

first of all I don't play this and neither you do btw so not saying I don't appreciate your input but I think that the argument between us it's quite pointless but hey anyways, look, it's a lot simpler than all that, that's your take on that and that's mine, let's see the next time that map gets played how it really does for fact in comparison and let's wait till then to evaluate it. what I do know for a fact so far is that there on the video is no good and requires immediate correction as we speak and hence the changes. did I get it right or did I get it wrong? I think I did and I'd expect those maps to now play a little better from the all-around perspective not just the over-the-top pinnacle point of view you always come at me from but hey it's ok who knows, let's find out. look, that's how I do things over here and that kind of approach is what has made of this mode and site what it's today so after all you're here because it hasn't worked that bad.
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Re: The Doors

Post by uZu »

Hello there,
tbh I think the incident you mention and which leads to this choice was a "PEBKAC" rather than a door problem. I mean, if a player decides to stand in front of a door instead of trying other tactics, it's not because the map design is bad.
Regarding the assumption that "doors and competitive games" do not mix well together, it's an endless and IMHO void debate. Anyone can see pros and cons and you can also say the same for lava or jumppads but would it be an improvement to also remove them?
I agree FT is not TDM or 1v1 but I'm not sure that removing key parts of the Q3 maps will help having a good playground.
Is there any chance to revert your change? I honnestly don't think that leaving doors open improve the game but I'm pretty sure it removes some tactical possibilities.
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Re: The Doors

Post by adminless »

I wouldn't blame the guy (or the guys) for the incident when they have been proven to excel at skill and have played epic games the way it's supposed to be played against top opponents despite the outcome. as I said in this case I don't think the players are at blame, as I'm telling you I think that particularly all of those players know perfectly how to play this game, but the game design it's, if not totally at blame (at the end of the day the map is very defensive one way or another, it's the way it's) at least subject to some improvement hence the change. in reality beyond quakecon elitist fabrications in other modes for this particular mode in this particular setting the only real purpose those doors have served on the real actual fights that have happened at the events here is to block shots and save you to get that extra thaw/movement/shot that drags the fight into a even longer deadlock rather that add anything to contribute to break such deadlock instead which is no good and the reason why they got removed. on the other hand teleporters, jumpads and all that serve the clear purpose of allowing you to move across the maps, I don't see a argument there to remove them, and speaking of lava, slime and so, it's interesting because of course indeed those were also altered from defensive (remember the 2021 final were Sbornaya exploited the lava on dm7 with no end) to offensive (on the events any form of suicide completely removes you from the game as if it were clan arena with no possibility to respawn again on the round in any way, shape or form).

anyways at the same time I'm also telling that the same way UnFreeZe is not anything else I also understand that there's a difference between the competitive games that get played at the events every night with the ones more casual and fun that happen everyday on the pubs so yeah I understand that there on the pub not everything has to be the "pinnacle" and may be getting covered a bit from all the massive waves of incoming spam can be welcome by some. I believe that given the case for that reason I can add a two weeks poll for that here on this thread and depending on the results I could unlock the doors on the pubs not at the events. on the events that's the behavior I find appropriate based on the analysis of the real games that happened and as well inferred and in tune with the rest of the assets that get played there.
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Re: The Doors

Post by uZu »

Fair enough, ty for the poll
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Re: The Doors

Post by PacMan »

uZu wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:43 Fair enough, ty for the poll
I no expert but doors normal mode is best way

Can't see why even in competition games doors open help the game , I watch players with mg open doors with a shot as it's part of the game

If anything then it's wrong map choice if you don't want allot of doors

Part of quake and every mod is working doors and hideaways to much removed loses the game
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Re: The Doors

Post by nickaero »

Having the doors always open wtf? Man this is so disrespectful to the artist who made those door textures
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Re: The Doors

Post by oKo*CTHULHU »

what a stupid vote, 'm not surprised at all haha
fakju *pizdukas voice
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Re: The Doors

Post by adminless »

yes it seems like you guys hated this change very much with a passion. ok, in such case I guess that then tomorrow I can probably enable the doors again on UnFreeZe1/2 as the poll writes and completely disable all doors on all maps (competitive or not) on glacius. for the events as I said until it doesn't really get played and I see it with my very own eyes that it really leads to all that kind of (yet unspecified btw) "poor" gameplay you are all talking about it will stick there. as I explained of course there are times when changes can be wrong but not doing anything in the face of a incident like the one documented will never have a chance to be right from the start. blaming the guy/s for it (yes despite ironically it was their own first map choice) is neither a option nor realistic. the guys went to shot the fourth historic top game of the events right after that even without their top player led. it's a fact the guy/s know the way to Quake III Arena.