fpsclassico masters tournament 2022

adminless inside tournaments forum.
RH
User lv3
User lv3
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2022 23:43

Re: fpsclassico masters tournament 2022

Post by RH »

adminless wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 14:58 @RH you feel like I jump to conclusions very quickly? yes sure, like the first and second that can't even figure out whether or not to play over a, significant but probably not even so decisive/critical, 11.65 msecs discrepancy, the fourth and third that went radio silent just after a single lose, the sixth that resigned just at a game time of 6:04 minutes with a perfectly fine adverse 8:4 score, the seventh that got enough as well just after another single lose, the "tenth" that was put to sleep before even fighting and not even showed, the "eleventh" and "twelfth" that didn't even make it to be able to lose just one single fight, the "thirteenth" that can't even get any words about dates availability, the "fourteenth" that, oh boy, that one is probably still figuring it out till this day how to create a forum account and then it comes to you telling me that I jump to conclusions very "quickly"? are you kidding me? ok, now do you want to know how I see it? what I really feel like is that players like these don't really add anything to the game and the community and they are just a cancer. that's why of course I always put the so-called "casuals" first and the whole site/thing is more oriented towards them than the so-called "experienced competitors" as none of them waste any of your time with all this kind of meaningless arguments with no end. they just show up, try their best, have a good time regardless of the score/adversities and call it a gg with a smile on their faces which at the end of the day is what we're here for, to come together and have a good time enjoying the game, not for the "pride", the "fame", the "trophies" or the "money". for all the latter let me tell you that you're probably over twenty plus years late my friend so I don't know how the next edition will play out but probably don't expect any major/drastic changes from this. I guess that probably after this at some casual weekend on June another UnFreeZe stellar community fight (which is a very different thing btw) with a potential fpsclassico masters against UnFreeZe stars theme could be a good idea to try as well and see how it plays out. for the future, unless the demand for another edition here is high, which I don't see at the moment, I guess that probably until well after the summer or the winter I won't try to promote another edition.

@nick pac is actually well known for making random meaningless messages out of nowhere here but I think that this time he's actually on point on his response and just in line with everything I've been saying so far and my actual own response, no everything has to be the pinnacle and so serious. people (I mean, is supposed to/should at least) join here to have a good time (fun) playing a few competitive matches so in that sense that's why I find it disappointing that with the notorious exception of the ninth place nobody followed with any undercard events as those were the fights that provided the best matchmaking of all (i.e. balance and hence fun/excitement). I mean, I understand that regardless of the score (win or lose) what people really enjoys is to fight people of their skill (or at least as close as possible) and that there's obviously not fun either getting smashed or smash somebody like 100:-10. a big part of the undercard event and small finals revolved around that matchmaking idea that's why I have the feeling that most people missed a big part of what the experience could have really been here.
When I say you had advice from experienced competitors, I was referring to myself and the numerous pieces of feedback I have provided. My history with quake is lengthy to say the least, and I have probably played more duel than anyone in the bracket. There are other people who seem to have a long history as well that are providing similar feedback though.

It was pointed out that OSP is a problematic and not very competitive mod that is archaic by today's standards with much better stand-ins that are accepted for vq3 competition. You have CPMA at minimum which handles ping significantly better and was the actual replacement for all high profile tournaments during quake3's actual pro competitive era. There are other options though, such as e+ with the vq3 ruleset, and while not 100% correct it would be accepted by a majority of actual serious duel players if it meant more fair matches. The issue with ping difference in the grand finals is ONLY a problem because of OSP, and if the advice was listened to earlier we would not be in this situation.

Basically everyone agrees that imposing artificial ping on one competitor is an unfair application of rules that did not exist at time of sign up. Your insistence here contradicts both players as well as all other duel players who have weighed in. Yes, the ping difference is a problem. No, artificially lagging one player is not the solution as it is a targeted handicap for one player.

The map pool was also noted as a problem, and has come back as a problem several times. Nobody had even voted some of the more fringe maps. Duel is played on a very small amount of maps because a very small amount of maps make for good duel games. Even cutting out all the junk, there are still 9 good playable maps in the map pool which is plenty. Even with all duel maps in the pool, anyone who wanted to specialize in a weird map can do so and likely have a surprise pick to win a set. It is boring for both players and spectators when some one doesn't know a map and all competitors should reasonably be expected to know all the maps in the pool at least from a layout perspective so they aren't lost.

The map decider format is in a way that I have never seen in a competition before, and that is really saying something considering how many competitions I have watched or participated in. This format of a predetermined list of deciders will always favor a player who is good on the most popular maps played on the server (ie who plays the most). This can impact map picks, and cause other problems. Honestly kf only lost because he banked on dm6 being the decider instead of picking it because it is his best map. This is coming back around in the finals now with miro being unhappy with the decider as well. Typically a decider should be unbiased. With a good map pool (which this is not), players can eliminate maps until a single one is left and play the deciding game on that.

Anyone could easily tell you that single elim tournaments mean people are just done after one loss. Asking them to come back and play show matches while they are discouraged from losing will not result in many games. With double elim, the games get played because there is always a chance they can make it back to the finals. The only reason 3rd place matches get played in big tournaments is because they have to decide who gets third place prize. There is not much incentive for people to keep playing with the rules and format you have designed, and I am not sure how you are surprised by this. Single elimination is usually only used when time is a concern, such as if you are running a tournament in a single day or over a weekend.

Yes this is a casual "for fun" tournament, but duel is just naturally a more serious game mode. All of these problems have been solved in the past and most duel players have this information. Playing "for fun" is the same casually outside of a tournament, as well as "for fun" inside of a tournament. What is different about a tournament is that wins and losses matter. So if you have a single elimination tournament and people are already eliminated, their wins and losses no longer matter and they might as well just play casually outside of the tournament from then on. Sni and noobzord both play together, so it isn't like they will not play each other, but they won't play for the tournament because there is no reason to.

Not being familiar with duel is perfectly fine. It is a hardcore game mode only enjoyed by a few people. However, it would really benefit everyone if the advice of people who actually know duel is listened to. The only thing I have heard is "all good players prefer osp" which is just false, and then everything else seems to be pulled out of thin air. The tournament is called "masters" so you might as well take it seriously enough to at least avoid problems that are pointed out. I personally do not respect the outcome of this tournament at all considering the circumstance.

It is appreciated to host an event in the first place, but please know your limitations and listen when others try to help you succeed.
nickaero
User lv4
User lv4
Posts: 136
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 20:40

Re: fpsclassico masters tournament 2022

Post by nickaero »

bananas
User avatar
adminless
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3305
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 19:05
in-game nick: not available
Location: Spain

Re: fpsclassico masters tournament 2022

Post by adminless »

dude you're some really persistent one, I think I have read and already answered all your messages so I don't even get what's the point of you still keep pressing further the same stuff over and over so I'm gonna stop here and stop wasting any more time arguing the same stuff with no end, I honestly have better stuff to do. just as with miroslav if you want a few quick thoughts over what you just wrote, basically you wrote there six points right:

1) the mod - I suggested cpma myself for this when it started some years ago and I believe that everybody around here refused to even consider connecting to it beside I believe that I gave you like a dozen reasons why osp was ultimately being used that you just seem to ignore. not to mention I also setup a new masters community server per your request I believe that nobody cares about so far and most still prefer the classic setup.

2) the ping - I would really like you to point out in what specific fight of the tournament the ping was the deciding factor that changed it all? I saw none, this is not another what if episode, this is what was. the grand final is obviously different and is obviously dealt differently beside there's as well more to it, there's a past as miro brought himself (hey it was perfectly cool him dodging to fight fau on ping 30 the previous time as this time it will be perfectly cool to enforce such ping value to the best of my ability, right?).

3) the map pool - "anyone who wanted to specialize in a weird map can do so and likely have a surprise pick to win a set" congrats at least you seemed to have gotten something right. "It is boring for both players and spectators" well it might be for you but sure it's hell a lot of fun for the guy that went for it, other way new competitors doesn't even stand a chance but hey not to win just to remain alive for longer than a few seconds on average. besides once again as on previous point I would really like you to point out in what specific fight of the tournament the map pool ruined it? I saw none so stop with the what if and give more of what was.

3 [bonus]) "This format of a predetermined list of deciders will always favor a player who is good on the most popular maps played on the [tournaments]" sounds good to me, that's typically the strongest player, beside I'm confident your shorted map pool probably coincide around those maps so again I don't even see the problem there. the rest is just strategy my friend not just flat footed fights.

4) the format - double elimination seems like a total burden to me, I mean, after losing let's say 75:4 I don't know why you're gonna come back for a second time? to see if you end negative? single elimination is a lot more exciting and a lot more realistic to implement specially when you don't have money involved as you have noted yourself. and btw I'm not surprised at all (that was the expectation in fact) I'm simply stating the facts so the people that follows this and requested more knows. what actually surprised me were the great and exciting fights that happened not the ones that didn't.

5) philosophy - well speaking of the third place final for example I personally think it matters to end a tournament third or fourth and with a good/positive performance specially after a hard loss at the semi finals than just leaving like that so I disagree on that as well. I call that engagement and I believe that there's motivation (ranking, stats, audience, the position itself etc) and differences enough from playing in a organized manner where you do for something that just randomly for the sake of it. in my opinion people skipping and/or neglecting/putting down altogether those fights just as you're doing now probably is just not on the same page as what this is about.

6) hard feelings - I repeat I have read all your advice and have already answered you why I'm probably not taking it. long story short your suggestions are all perfectly valid (and trivial to implement btw) from the point of view of a hardcore player thing is that the majority are indeed not hardcore players. your suggestions just come across to me as that, as very specific, reduced and bothersome rulesets that only look forward pleasing the appetite of a very few (may be a handful) of people here and that probably for other than those doesn't really bring anything else for the rest but alienate them by maximizing any performance gap till the very maximum. as said, people would sure do that for the money, outside that they just do it to have a good time and enjoy the game so most don't like so many limitations and countless arguments with no end to begin with. besides simply put this is what I do here as I told you not something else.
RH
User lv3
User lv3
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2022 23:43

Re: fpsclassico masters tournament 2022

Post by RH »

You are definitely missing the point. I agree though that it is pointless to argue, because you don't consider that you may be wrong. You also take things I say out of context to support your own view I was arguing against, which just makes any further statements worthless.

From what I gather, you are saying the "masters" tournament is not for hardcore players. Change tournament name to "noobs" then :D
fau
User lv4
User lv4
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2020 18:46

Re: fpsclassico masters tournament 2022

Post by fau »

So what's up, I assume we don't play?
Sorry it ends this way. I had good games and enjoyed it while it lasted. ggs to all, see you next time.
User avatar
adminless
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3305
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 19:05
in-game nick: not available
Location: Spain

Re: fpsclassico masters tournament 2022

Post by adminless »

lol not really I guess that's up to you to decide. I mean, the Sunday 15 of May of 2022 21:00 CEST (UTC+02) date for the grand final remains, I didn't take it down and I won't. now if you or miro or both want to resign/withdrawn that's obviously a different story that will of course be dealt accordingly so you'll (both) say basically what you have decided to do. remember that until the weekend you have time to make it happen and chose your maps, otherwise yes it won't happen and given the circumstances you could even end up making sn1 fpsclassico masters 2022 champion afterwards and all in a interesting turn of events hehe
fau
User lv4
User lv4
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2020 18:46

Re: fpsclassico masters tournament 2022

Post by fau »

I'm just asking because the final date for picking maps was today, and I already stopped playing myself because it seems to me it won't happen. I'd like to know for sure.
User avatar
adminless
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3305
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 19:05
in-game nick: not available
Location: Spain

Re: fpsclassico masters tournament 2022

Post by adminless »

yeah me too as I said I still look forward and keep working to make it happen and to be honest I don't even see why it shouldn't in the first place. I know initially it was scheduled for tomorrow night the date, it was moved the past Friday 6 of May of 2022 around 13:29 CEST (UTC+02) to the Sunday night apparently per your request according to this Miroslav message:
unfortunately I had assumed that you were properly up to date/informed and ok with the change, please let me know if it wasn't the case. for the rest, rest assured that unless you explicitly resign in written to me I won't count you out so count that you either will fight Miroslav or you'll win the thing and finally become lineal.
fau
User lv4
User lv4
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2020 18:46

Re: fpsclassico masters tournament 2022

Post by fau »

Yeah, I'm ok with Sunday. I don't see why would I resign. If the whole thing ends up with such a conflict then the title is rather meaningless. I'd rather stay out of it, obviously the conflict between you transcends this single disagreement about the rules. I've agreed to play on either yours or miro's conditions so now it's between you two.

I only wrote because I'm keen to know already. Thinking it won't happen makes me uninterested in playing/practicing for it so I don't. But if nobody can tell me then fine, I'll wait until Sunday.
User avatar
adminless
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3305
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 19:05
in-game nick: not available
Location: Spain

Re: fpsclassico masters tournament 2022

Post by adminless »

yeah of course neither I do that's why I didn't quite really understand/misinterpreted your message, sorry about that and thank you for the update. fair enough I believe that then I'll send him a reminder now about the grand final with a deadline of 48 hours and if by then (the Thursday 12 of May of 2022 20:45 CEST [UTC+02]) he hasn't clearly committed in written to carry on the fight he will be disqualified due refusal to play.
User avatar
adminless
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3305
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 19:05
in-game nick: not available
Location: Spain

Re: fpsclassico masters tournament 2022

Post by adminless »

Miroslav reached back on last minute, he chooses hub3tourney1, ztn3tourney1 and q3dm13. this means the fight will go on.
fernandinho1337
User lv5
User lv5
Posts: 495
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:15

Re: fpsclassico masters tournament 2022

Post by fernandinho1337 »

has the mod on duel server been changed? or the quake version? something is different. plus i have sort of stable 28 ping but spiking sometimes.

can you maybe shed some light?

best
User avatar
adminless
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3305
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 19:05
in-game nick: not available
Location: Spain

Re: fpsclassico masters tournament 2022

Post by adminless »

no, not at all, I haven't changed anything and the latency compensation (11.65 msecs) is flat delay implemented at the server network stack (i.e. it has nothing to do with the game server, q3/osp, application itself). the spiking is probably just base connection jitter which has nothing to do with the compensation (i.e. you would spike anyways only at lower ping, I noticed when I measured it past month your jitter was high around -/+ 2 msecs).
fau
User lv4
User lv4
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2020 18:46

Re: fpsclassico masters tournament 2022

Post by fau »

ok, I pick pukka, hektik and phant.
User avatar
adminless
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3305
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 19:05
in-game nick: not available
Location: Spain

Re: fpsclassico masters tournament 2022

Post by adminless »

great news then the fight will go pukka3tourney2, hub3tourney1, ztn3tourney1, hektik_b3, phantq3dm1_rev, q3dm13 and pro-q3dm6. I'll send the fight PM once I get back the ping probes I requested you both on PM and after further server/network testing (double check/triple check) just to be safe. other than that as usual fight hard, fight clean, have fun and good luck on the last fight of the tournament that will decide everything. see you the Sunday night in-game.