fpsclassico masters tournament 2022

[fau]

ok, I checked nodm9 but unlike what I thought - it's not the same as quakelive lostworld. It has some similarities, but also some differences - yet another map I've never played before. I think I'll stick to q3dm13 then (not pro-q3dm13), because it used to be in original pool and I already practiced it a few times thinking the choice was between it and pro version.

[sn1]

for me any is ok

[adminless]

ok, fair enough then I'll update the pool with the legacy maps as well (I just removed them because I thought nobody cared/junk) and I'll send you fight PM later on.

[adminless]

done, legacy maps (re)added to the tournament map pool and PM sent now as usual if you didn't receive it/have any problem or anything just let me know.

[fau]

I think in this specific case pro-q3dm13 was never really played in duel - one can old find lan tournament matches on q3dm13 on youtube. Even nodm9 and lostworld are based on non-pro version with their item layout.

In other cases like dm6 - only pro version was played. I don't think anyone needs non-pro q3dm6 etc. in the pool. It looks to me like map pool has a lot of maps that were never really played in q3 duel currently.

I know it's confusing but ultimately players decided what's popular and what's not, and id software with their pro versions was not infallible.

[adminless]

ok, thanks for input, then I guess I can probably remove the legacy ones and as change simply replace pro-q3dm13 by q3dm13 and leave it open for revision on the future as usual. done that now. the rest of the pool as I explained before is to accommodate the major number of people possible and to be honest to make it a bit more entertaining as well (variety). as a example, q3tourney3 is not a competitive duel map but it was the top play of the ninth place for example. ztn3tourney1, most popular duel map ever, is not even known in UnFreeZe. the cpm maps are huge on cpm (I think cpm24 was fun/played good). and the list could go on and on. that being said on the finals is obvious that they are gonna be played around the top picks we all expect here. I don't think that having a few more options to chose from takes something away from that if not probably the contrary.

[fau]

Fair. I think with a map pool this size nobody knows all the maps so it doesn't really matter if there are few extra. Best players seem to pick widely known maps anyway.

[kf]

if i remember right mappool of q3 duel in 2008 was hubaero, nodm9, pro-dm6, ztn and pro-t4. that should be the most played maps in q3 at those times. before there were maps in pool like t2 hubtourney etc.
they added nice maps in qlive at this time like furious heights, think trinity was also played at beginning. house of decay... later toxicity (pukka), cure, sinister, hektik, silence etc.
maybe it could be useful next time to make a poll for mappool to have decent matches. 20 maps in mappool is really causing big differences because there might be players which could just practice maps, which no one really plays or there also might be players, which dont know which they should pick to play.
i think like 7 maps in pool would be enough. you also could play bo7 at finals. bo5 in semis, quarters maybe with the possibilty to remove one map by the players.

[fernandinho1337]

q3dm6tmp was played at razer cpl 1999
it had two yellow armors and a 50 health bubble in the middle. it was super fast paced since you basically had to rotate through the map. dm6 is quite disbalanced actually and makes for more one sided play and also slower if the controlling person decides so. ^^

when is my next game? may 4 to may 7 i will have availability issues i am afraid.

best regards,

[adminless]

@kf it could be considered for a different edition/event setting but basically what you're putting down from the map pool is just what I view as normal part of the strategy as well as fun as I was saying. I mean, if for example I'm a new competitor with near zero experience on any hardcore duel maps (ex. a UnFreeZe player) I'm obviously going to go for maps where the competence has low experience as well since those are probably my only chances. it's obvious I'm not gonna go for maps where the competence has +10000 hours of competitive experience where I have none since no matter what I do or how hard I try, I will never catch up on my lifetime, I would probably have to born again (i.e. once I worked my ass off to get to those +10000 hours they will be on +20000, it would probably be only after +20 or +30 years of non stop dedicated training that the numbers would start to compare for something like 100000 competitive hours versus 90000 for example). the point of the competition here is to see who can adapt and perform the best to a variety of opponents, strategies, situations and assets to ultimately become the overall classic fps master not just who's master of a very specific limited set of maps/situations. at the end of the day as I said having more maps on the pool doesn't take anything away from your home picks, it only allows for everyone to potentially have a home map that suits them and as seen the tie-breakers are taken from the top-picks so it's nevertheless a fair competition. not to mention that if we're now accepting that the grand final will be disputed at bo7 I think just have a 7 maps pool would be totally weak/lame (I mean, there's literally nothing to chose from there, all fights will be known from the beginning, not fun aka boring). basically what I'm telling you as well is that if you want to do something else besides Miroslav vs fau XXVII - afterlife or sn1 vs kf XLIII - reborn, which I understand is what you wanted and what happened with this edition instead of just that a couple of always the same fights, you have to open up.

@miro well as said other times remix/remake maps there has been a ton over the years, I don't think that it would be a good idea now to start dropping like five different versions to chose from for any map. in that regard I believe that it always works out better to just stick to one or two at most of the most popular/known versions of a map and stay away from very specific ones that outside of their specific use they never really have been played.

as for your semi final date it will obviously depend on your rival that will be decided tomorrow on the last quarter but so far is currently scheduled for this Tuesday 3 of May of 2022 21:15 CEST (UTC+02) then initially I understand that should be good for you. if finally that date doesn't happen, I guess other potential dates could be the Monday 2 or the Sunday 8 nights for example. anyways, as usual, once there's a opponent we'll discuss it. thanks for the update.

[kf]

if the newer not experienced players meet each other, there is no average between them like the 10k hours what u said
in the end the best players will stay at all, it doesnt make a difference if you have to play not known maps, because the player with the most overall exp of duel will win it anyways. but to make it more even to have only like 7 maps is that the participants also will practice only these 7.
for "newer" players there are more even games also. best example was orgi vs wife. they won their maps and tie breaker decided. which they both kinda knew. and only at dm6 i couldnt tell you before who will win. at their maps it was clear before that orgi wins t3 and t4 and wife wins hub and bf (for me it was). so the fights were also known before. everyone knew that we only can wait for dm6 to see who wins the game btw i played versus both before and they only wanted to play their maps. they dont wanted to practice the maps which the enemy picked. they just wanted to win their maps to make it to tie breaker (which both also didnt practice )

[adminless]

I know, that's what I was talking about. additionally you also have the magi example that tried to go by my thoughts of picking lesser maps in a effort to pull a upset (or at least some balance) but made the mistake of going by one of the most lg dominant maps against one of the strongest lg players on the tournament. no good (for his interests obviously) but hey I think it was fun too and that's part of the excitement/strategy of the tournament and that's something you completely take away by narrowing the pool into strictly canon/elitist values. at the end of the day the better player still (clearly btw) won and as the tournament develops and the most experienced players match then the picks become more and more the norm just as you said. no big deal and to be honest with you I haven't really observed any problems with the tournament setup overall I think it has worked great so far. I mean, yes, your setup could be tried at some other edition but it will be just that, another different thing that I understood that is not what people wanted this to be this time.

for the rest, yes, but that's normal/reasonable/expected too, as I was telling you there's no much point in pulling a tens of hours of practice on some maps to go against someone with those plus thousand something hours of experience as it's not really going to make any significant difference (you're not gonna catch up). it's however much more productive to put that time on a map where you guess your opponent competitive experience to be comparable. of course you're not gonna end up winning (as nobody is expecting the newcomers to beat the seeds btw) but at least may be on the latter you lose your map with a disputed 12:5 score while on the former you get totally done 20:-3 half way. you may get people signing up for the for first while I highly doubt that for other than just that, the absolute undisputed elite, you'll get anybody else to go for the second as there's no point in that. besides whatever the case is as you can see it leads at least to a wide rich variety of strategies and situations that add in a positive way to the game and that make for a more wholesome tournament and champion.

[fernandinho1337]

I just wanted to give some historical information
No need for old dm6tmp ^^ it was just fun back in the days

[adminless]

no worries mate I wasn't thinking in adding it as said, what I did however was to include legacy q3tourney2 to the pool after further revision. I think legacy q3tourney4 doesn't really add anything compared to pro-q3tourney4 but I believe that q3tourney2 can have potential strategical added value over pro-q3tourney2 particularly for the current pool so better have it and be safe than sorry later. btw noobzordofzords won the quarterfinal today on a terrific performance, one of the best fights (balance/strategy wise) so far congrats to him on the victory as well as to mike on a great fight. will probably write some more as well as the next round match ups later on.

[RH]

There is definitely room for criticism of the map pool and everyone I have talked to who is participating, watching, or just a duel player in general has said there are some pretty trash maps in the pool and it is really bloated.

IMO these are the only playable maps in the entire pool:
pro-q3dm6 (campgrounds)
pro-q3tourney4 (verticalvengeance)
pro-q3tourney7 (almostlost)
hektik_b3 (hektik)
hub3aeroq3 (aerowalk)
hub3tourney1 (dismemberment)
phantq3dm1_rev (battleforged)
pukka3tourney2 (toxicity)
ztn3tourney1 (bloodrun)

These shouldn't be played in 1v1 at all:
q3dm2 (beginners)
q3dm5 (beginners)
pro-q3tourney2 (provinggrounds)
bloodcovenant (remake)
q3shw19 (exclusive)
qxtourney1 (choice)
storm3tourney1 (exclusive)

These don't work in vq3, but I guess you could play them if you really want to have a bad time playing maps that are built around an entire different movement system.
cpm1a (wicked)
cpm3a (useandabuse)
cpm15 (exclusive)
cpm24 (phrantic)

Lastly, these two have better versions that are actually played by people, but the version listed is not competitive or played at all:
q3tourney3 (beginners) -> played version is the better balanced pro-q3tourney3
pro-q3dm13 (lostworld) -> played version is nodm9

It is important to have map variety and enough maps in a pool to give options. Practicing up specific maps is and always has been a strategy for competition. Counter picking for your opponents weaknesses is important. However duel maps are very particular and a lot of maps just don't play good in 1v1 due to poor layout. It also needs to be reasonable for a person to learn and know all the maps in a pool, which with a pool this bloated, it really isn't even for active duel players who know the good ones already. It is boring to watch, and even more boring to play when one person just doesn't know a map at all. It also isn't good competition as you don't really know who the better player is in that scenario.

On that same note, I think the tie breaker map solution could be reworked in the future. Using the most popular maps in order will heavily favor certain players. This is so much of an issue that maybe some one will count on dm6 or ztn being the decider. Usually an elimination system of remaining maps in pool would be best, however you'd need a normal sized pool for that to work.

Just my opinion. Take it or leave it. I think my opinion will line up with any duel player with competitive experience though.