UnFreeZe league

[fau]

Few other ideas how the lava issue could be fixed.
1. Someone suggested adding quad/battlesuit (but it wouldn't feel like unfreeze anymore, would it?)
2. Stop lava/slime from doing damage
3. It takes much longer to thaw players who died from environment (10-15 seconds? Enough time to mount an attack on red room with advantage.
4. Make ppl who die from environment disappear as if they died in void, and only respawn after a minute.
5. Remove super campy maps with lava like dm7 or dm11 from the map pool.

[LeopolD]

Oh, and here's a VOD (ixsy's POV) of the final:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1029346300

[adminless]

@nick I don't think so (about dm14 that they outclassed you and so) you actually had a positive damage relation on that map despite the fact that they spawned 16 times more than you (i.e. 20:4 on thaws which was again the deciding factor for the Sbornaya on dm14, actually if you would have kept up the thaw game there you would have outclassed them). sure I'm not saying that with blaze on the game you would have won but definitively your chances of have finished the job without further problems would have significantly increased. in my opinion it was a strategical mistake to change your top player on a tournament deciding game, probably 6++ (with a more likely loss) was a better chance to give blaze some rest. anyways, it's just a commentary so take it as feedback, it ultimately worked but it was a extremely risky maneuver that could have easily cost you the title. I know (about overkill) as I said those were exactly my feelings that they just had took the victory for granted no matter what and that they just had showed for the fans and to resolve who of them (either ixsy, nastia or ixxaaa) was taking home the mvp prize and by the time they realized they had miscalculated and tried to react (i.e. actually play seriously with some sort of strategy) it was just too late. (about dm7) I know that they probably didn't mean any wrong to anybody and that likely they were just frustrated/disappointed with themselves which manifested on that desperate "tactic" but trust me that as I said it came up wrong and that's something you can not "overlook" just like that particularly coming from from a very strong team on a grand final and when pretty much things were over. I mean yes you can think that but you can also see it like this, if after 40 more minutes of game and between 40/50 thaw exploits more they would have turned around the game and you'll ended up losing the title would you also be so understanding? I'm telling you because at the end of the day that's what they were looking for and the argument that that was unrealistically to happen doesn't mean that it couldn't have happened and/or that it could have led to further controversy thus that's obviously something you need to tackle. you can not just let that to happen like that or things will get out of hand soon. anyways it's what it's as I said I don't think it deserves any more discussion I believe that just with note it and what has been said is enough beside it didn't take anything away from the rest of the tournament as well as the final. ggs.

@leopold the thing is that as I commented I didn't observe anything similar from any of the other teams not even the Sbornaya itself. as said had been the case and make sure that I would have posted the same (or similar) negative opinion. as mentioned if by team "B" you meant ILM this night I can tell you that as far as I recall they definitively were on the offense at least for the relevant part of the game. anyways glad to hear you enjoyed the grand final, ggs

for the rest there's various possibilities to evaluate. yes replacing q3dm7 by 7++ was one of them that I considered but seriously if just because I added two well know maps that ultimately weren't even played you went crazy on me if I remove q3dm7 you'll just quit altogether with no more talking. bottom line about that, that's not gonna happen, regular q3dm7 is likely if not the most one of the most popular maps so it's gonna stick. same as with dm11 as it was already suggested the last time this surfaced. as for adding other items/powerups, in my opinion is ruining the game (alien) at least just like that for the "sake of it". removing the damage from the maps can be a solution but it has the tremendous downside that it significantly impact the way the maps are intended to be played by allowing players to navigate and occupy places they just shouldn't so it can potentially lead to also poor playing. for the rest the right solution and the one that I'm considering, yes, is treating map deaths (suicides) as eliminations so those that killed themselves gets eliminated. yes, tough shit that I think is clear we prefer to stay away from so as I said by now I'll just let it be like this as for other than this particular incident it wasn't a issue (on the oKo day I just brought the topic not because it really negatively impacted the game but as usual on prediction that this day will come so people was already aware of the issue) and I understand that people should honor that the way they honor the rest of the things then if the problem really escalates/persists (i.e. say one or two more incidents like this) after further evaluation then yes take action on the commented line.

ok, videos up already on YouTube as well as the fpsclasico video site (video.fpsclasico.de) at least the fourth first so far. the longer tie-breaker fifth is currently being produced now and it will probably be on YouTube in few hours and at the fpsclasico video around dinner time more or less. unfortunately there was some small delay as due the unusual first demo there was a error when producing the first video that required manual action. anyways, don't worry that by this night as much late you'll have the footage on its appropriate separate thread as usual.

[fau]

And I'd add one extra possible solution:
6. Just accept it the way it is. The game lasted 30 minutes, nothing out of ordinary. Some rounds just can't be won and the best you can do is to put yourself at advantage for next round - this is what ILM actually did and won the following round quickly.

[PacMan]

And I'd add one extra possible solution:
6. Just accept it the way it is. The game lasted 30 minutes, nothing out of ordinary. Some rounds just can't be won and the best you can do is to put yourself at advantage for next round - this is what ILM actually did and won the following round quickly.

Best way

[LeopolD]

What I meant to say is that if for example in this match on dm7 Sbornaya managed to sit on RA for several minutes then because ILM let them. As proven in the last round they are able to commit and go full in and win the round. I mean whatever Team A is doing, it does it because Team B allows it. And actually I would have been impressed if Sbornaya would have pulled it off and turned it around that way, yes:)

That it can be done that way IMO is more a gameplay issue then a moral failure:P

The lava-driven restacking I personally think is not a bad thing at all, it maybe another reason to get the RA area locked down.
I played qw for years and there are also funny map exploits (rj up to the top on ztn, hide inside the RA/MH tele on dm2 while very slowly taking damage etc.), there those are considered part of the game that the opponent has to deal with.

But that's just my take on it, I hope to see more tournaments:)

[i_cezar]

GGs Sbornaya Rossii!
I'm happy to win this tournament alongside my friends!
This was our first tournament as a team. We perseveared in preparation and put a lot of effort into training maps. So we ended up having no less than 6 different home maps troughout the competition, which gave us an upperhand to engage our opposition based on their play style. We lost home maps and took opposing team home maps, unexpectedly at times.
We didn't have the first chance here i would say, because first of all we had no 1st bucket player, only like 3 players from bottom of bucket 2, arguably, at the time. But we entered as a clan. And second of all we ended the regular season in 3rd place which meant we would start with some disadvantages in the semifinal and respectively the final. That made the victory so much sweeter. As a note here, i didn't get it why in the final Sbornaya representative chose to play 2 of ILM home maps from the first 3.
I would say we had some thriller games this tournament, especially in the second stage. These are the kind of games i signed up for when orgi invited me to clan and told me "let's get a good team going and make some nice clan wars" *determined orgi voice*. We knew the final against Sbornaya would be the hardest matchup yet because they were unbeaten in the league and they hadn't droped a home map yet. We have a soft/ethic agreement where everyone plays about the same number of maps and has fun. I sat out dm14 because i dont like it so much, but it seems to be quite interesting for 5v5. At the begining we agreed I should make the general voice calls and "lead" the team, but now everyone knows those commands(like regroup/attack/hold etc) and whoever has the more knewledge from around the map or feels like it makes the calls. We dont depend on 1 person to run the team and it's generaly hard for the same player to make the right calls based on his knewledge at a given moment.
We took their home map overkill and previously having won our hub3t1, we were in a confortable position leading 2-0. We didn't lose focus this time, as it happened in the past. But they bounced back in a style worth of a seasoned and mature team as they are. Having a lot of experience on their second home map 6++, they pretty much cat-moused us there. I think only Team Community B came close to beat them there, ended 10-9. And oKo clan almost snatched their overkill, same score 10-9.
The deciding one was dm7, a map that pretty much everyone of them and us like it. We didn't try to ditch it even if we lost it against them in the regular season stage. Actually every member of ILM is strong on this one so we pretty much can just rock-paper-scissors it. It would be a pity for it to be removed. Here we displayed i think our best/polished/disciplined team-play yet, with few mistakes by our standards. Seeing fewer mistakes when there are 5 people involved under pressure is a nice thing. By the time they switched strategy it was a bit too late for them.
I don't mind them sitting on red for 10 mins if the circumstances require it, and a 9-4 score scenario is self-explained. This can be fixed if needed by a winning on most points by time condition(say if its 9-4 at min 20). This would also get teams moving in late game when pressure of the result can make players campy. My opinion is no quad/battlesuit as it seems to me as a superficial approach to balance things that lead to an ugly game. So no need to remove map(s)(dm7, dm11, dm13, dm8 etc). A little problem was with reseting on lava. At one moment i hit 2 rail shots on one of their player which was full, he reset in lava, i hit 2 times more from the same middle-to-red possition, he reset again and then he killed me. That looked a bit bad.. Again the circumstances were understandable, they didnt to it at 1-1 or 3-2 score like this. But for example if you're down 9-4 and the pressure is on and you know you are going to lose the final if you don't reset, then how are you supposed to go around the map with that in mind?? So yes, i think i would have reset like them in that situation. I don't feel that takes away any of the honor/reputation they have. They earned reputation/honor by results in the league and they still have it. I didnt lost respect. The Sbornaya was a gain for this league, well done by whoever persuade them to join! But from previous posts i felt confidence from the admin side that he can patch it/solve it somehow.
And i personally would not agree with point deduction based on lava reset abuse, but its not up for me to say more. I would just appeal the decision if i were them and it were possible to do it, based on this rule being stated just in a comment somewhere in 18 pages of comments that maybe they dont follow(they didnt even had the map). Its true that lava reset doesnt bring something positive into the game(only in some situations maybe) and its hard to control. But as stated above by the people in charge of this event, its at begining and we learn as we go. So keeping in mind that we lack at the moment the definion of terms(how many lava resets are considered abuse per game, when) and in this case it clearly didnt influence the output of the game and its stated merely in a comment, if there was a appeal posibility maybe could be handled without deducting points. Just saying this because they have a good team and went trough all the games, have brought dynamic in the tournament and in prospect of future similar events.

Finally,
Thanks to my clan mates which are also my friends
Thanks for mvp
Thanks to Liza for starting and organizing this
Thanks to adminless for all the work, providing, technical, reffereeing, videos

thanks to Sbornaya Rossii
thanks to all teams involved
thanks to all sparring partners/friends(us calling them/they calling us)

GGs

[i_cezar]

Ok adminless i read your response to nick, which answered some of the questions in my own later similar post. So yes, if we were to lose the grand final from like a 9-7 to 9-10 because the reset on lava over and over, would not be nice. But if the game allows it, yes we need a rule. And the thing of reseting in lava/void is not so simple. You can also mask reset by letting yourself shot into void, or walk deriberately into grenades to name only a few. So disguising this intent is possible, how can that be judged?

[nickaero]

@nick I don't think so (about dm14 that they outclassed you and so) you actually had a positive damage relation on that map despite the fact that they spawned 16 times more than you (i.e. 20:4 on thaws which was again the deciding factor for the Sbornaya on dm14, actually if you would have kept up the thaw game there you would have outclassed them). sure I'm not saying that with blaze on the game you would have won but definitively your chances of have finished the job without further problems would have significantly increased. in my opinion it was a strategical mistake to change your top player on a tournament deciding game, probably 6++ (with a more likely loss) was a better chance to give blaze some rest. anyways, it's just a commentary so take it as feedback, it ultimately worked but it was a extremely risky maneuver that could have easily cost you the title. I know (about overkill) as I said those were exactly my feelings that they just had took the victory for granted no matter what and that they just had showed for the fans and to resolve who of them (either ixsy, nastia or ixxaaa) was taking home the mvp prize and by the time they realized they had miscalculated and tried to react (i.e. actually play seriously with some sort of strategy) it was just too late. (about dm7) I know that they probably didn't mean any wrong to anybody and that likely they were just frustrated/disappointed with themselves which manifested on that desperate "tactic" but trust me that as I said it came up wrong and that's something you can not "overlook" just like that particularly coming from from a very strong team on a grand final and when pretty much things were over. I mean yes you can think that but you can also see it like this, if after 40 more minutes of game and between 40/50 thaw exploits more they would have turned around the game and you'll ended up losing the title would you also be so understanding? I'm telling you because at the end of the day that's what they were looking for and the argument that that was unrealistically to happen doesn't mean that it couldn't have happened and/or that it could have led to further controversy thus that's obviously something you need to tackle. you can not just let that to happen like that or things will get out of hand soon. anyways it's what it's as I said I don't think it deserves any more discussion I believe that just with note it and what has been said is enough beside it didn't take anything away from the rest of the tournament as well as the final. ggs.

@leopold the thing is that as I commented I didn't observe anything similar from any of the other teams not even the Sbornaya itself. as said had been the case and make sure that I would have posted the same (or similar) negative opinion. as mentioned if by team "B" you meant ILM this night I can tell you that as far as I recall they definitively were on the offense at least for the relevant part of the game. anyways glad to hear you enjoyed the grand final, ggs

for the rest there's various possibilities to evaluate. yes replacing q3dm7 by 7++ was one of them that I considered but seriously if just because I added two well know maps that ultimately weren't even played you went crazy on me if I remove q3dm7 you'll just quit altogether with no more talking. bottom line about that, that's not gonna happen, regular q3dm7 is likely if not the most one of the most popular maps so it's gonna stick. same as with dm11 as it was already suggested the last time this surfaced. as for adding other items/powerups, in my opinion is ruining the game (alien) at least just like that for the "sake of it". removing the damage from the maps can be a solution but it has the tremendous downside that it significantly impact the way the maps are intended to be played by allowing players to navigate and occupy places they just shouldn't so it can potentially lead to also poor playing. for the rest the right solution and the one that I'm considering, yes, is treating map deaths (suicides) as eliminations so those that killed themselves gets eliminated. yes, tough shit that I think is clear we prefer to stay away from so as I said by now I'll just let it be like this as for other than this particular incident it wasn't a issue (on the oKo day I just brought the topic not because it really negatively impacted the game but as usual on prediction that this day will come so people was already aware of the issue) and I understand that people should honor that the way they honor the rest of the things then if the problem really escalates/persists (i.e. say one or two more incidents like this) after further evaluation then yes take action on the commented line.

ok, videos up already on YouTube as well as the fpsclasico video site (video.fpsclasico.de) at least the fourth first so far. the longer tie-breaker fifth is currently being produced now and it will probably be on YouTube in few hours and at the fpsclasico video around dinner time more or less. unfortunately there was some small delay as due the unusual first demo there was a error when producing the first video that required manual action. anyways, don't worry that by this night as much late you'll have the footage on its appropriate separate thread as usual.

Damage output means little in these type of matches, we have players that like to play risky style and always look for damage, rails, etc. It can be great because you put out a lot of damage but you can also die in weird spots which makes it harder to melt. They also coordinated rushes better and defended RA better, so yes I stand by my comment and will say they outplayed us on dm14. On dm7 I am not saying what they did was pretty and it must have sucked to those who were spectating, I just think giving them a penalty on future conpetitions is too harsh, they have some excellent players and this game isn't exactly booming rn, we should embrace as many players that want to play competitive as possible. I draw the line at toxicity and actual rage quits tho, things of that sort. But I didn't get that impression from them. Anyway that's it, GG's I think that apart from that incident it was an awesome match and I'm just looking to move on and look forward to future matches

[...jutuli...]

I always believed that ILluMinati will take over the world and set a New World Order. It seems it started already Congrats.

[nickaero]

I always believed that ILluMinati will take over the world and set a New World Order. It seems it started already Congrats.

We cannot be stopped muahahahah

[orgi69]

I always believed that ILluMinati will take over the world and set a New World Order. It seems it started already Congrats.

Actually we were just hoping for a nice artwork from Porsche...but it seems like it's not gonna happen.


Nice words Blaze - can just join your final words!
GGs Sbornaya Rossii
GGs all other teams - this tournament was fun with pretty equal matches!
Thx to Adminless and Liza for organizing these tournaments and putting your free time into it.

[adminless]

@fau yes as usual with your answers they are on point yes probably that's a good way to put in few words the bricks I actually post at this site, well done

@leopold well may be you would but as I think that it has surfaced here many people (myself included) would be outraged by that as once again it's clear that's not the way the game is meant to be played. the game should be merely decided by skill but by skill at being successful at actually playing it (i.e. movement, accuracy, fight iq etc) not successful at taking advantage of design flaws (i.e. exploiting it). when exploiting the game becomes more favorable than actually playing it in a skillful manner then that's not a loss for the skilled player but merely a defeat for the game designer (i.e. me in this case and to the community/game per extension) and hence shall be the case I'll be obliged to take care of that one way or another as explained. for the rest as I also said I felt they (ILM) had already broke that game and they had pushed more than enough already as to move to a more controlled finish to avoid any surprises. I mean, definitively they weren't the ones that were lagging on the score and that needed to make an (active) extra effort to turn things around but the opposite. I don't see any reason why a team comfortably leading 9:5 should push like crazy to get the job done. they did just what they needed to do to take home the title and they even did it playing great and having fun which at these kind of competitions where you don't do it for the 10k, 20k euros in prizes and similar is almost as important as the outcome itself if not more.

@blaze I know as I said congrats on a epic victory both individually as well as collectively. yes basically my thoughts are that you (ILM) truly worked through it and put the effort needed to go all the way while for the Sbornaya for other than nastia nobody even seriously showed/played here, that's the fact. I think that fact alone in the context of a competition should speak by itself. good to know they (themselves) were the ones that actually came up with that order then as that mean there's no room for any kind of controversy even on that. well, basically that just come to prove for a fact that they simply went from a healthy confidence by the end of the league to overconfidence/arrogance by the end of the tournament as I suspected. it's way clear their actions were telling they weren't even taking you seriously and they were underestimating you. and yeah of course I'm fully aware you're not just a one player team (i.e. you and four more) and probably that's what ILM succeed the most at actually building a balanced team. that being said I still felt like you were particularly missing from dm14, I mean, as I said, that's just my opinion, not saying that's a fact or anything. about dm7 don't worry that as I said it's obviously not going to be removed nor I'm going to now start adding power ups or any other kind of dramatic changes. as stated the policy so far is just let it be (again keeping in mind that flagrant abuse of it can be penalized) for further evaluation to potentially patch it if necessary (say you suicide at the map you get eliminated for example). for the rest I believe that you pretty much answered yourself on your second post, it would obviously be very upsetting and wrong if they would ultimately ended up taking the final just like that hence the (only minor) penalization. well as for the rule as you note is hard to tell hence the need for a human referee to make situation based calls for each game. besides as a general (synthetic which seems to be what you're requesting) rule as I dug so far I believe the threshold for further investigation and potential penalization/overturn of result can be put at 15 suicides per game per team. from what I see I believe things get ugly beyond that threshold thus I believe we can make the rule draft that teams with more than 15 suicides in a game (forced or not) will lost it regardless of the score. in my opinion that's probably the best approach for the issue at the moment.

@nick as usual with synthetic metrics they aren't "law" and as the saying goes stats are made just to be broken. that being said the damage metric generally is a good a indicator of how good a team fought overall and in this case it even coincide with my personal appreciation. in my opinion on that map you all did lot better than what your impression may actually be, just for the record notice that on that map Sbornaya top performance was by black.dii and you actually stopped/contained ixsy/ixxaaa to some extend and even demoted mvp caliber player nastia to last position of his team. that's quite something, I honestly have the feeling that you had a high chance to close the fight at that map. anyways, ggs.

[PacMan]

I always believed that ILluMinati will take over the world and set a New World Order. It seems it started already Congrats.

Actually we were just hoping for a nice artwork from Porsche...but it seems like it's not gonna happen.

More like he will continue to challenge u lol

[^ironmonkey]

Hello everyone,

I want to follow up on the messages from Blaze, Orgi and Nickaero.

We had signed up for the clan tournament brought to life by Liza without having a feel for what to expect. Shortly before, our focus was on the clanwar against WTF and, to be honest, we hadn't dealt with this for a single moment, but we sayed yes - why not

It was a 7-week tournament that cost us a lot of strength and an enormous amount of preparation time (all that next to work, family, obligations, etc). It was only through this ambitious commitment by all ILM members that we were able to reach this success and have achieved an incredible development during these weeks.

Finally, I would like to personally thank:

- my friends/our team ILM for your commitment, the great time together, your trust, the fair cooperation and (once again) especially for letting me play all maps of the tournament

- Adminless, for providing the servers, all administrative tasks in the forum, regulations, extensive reports and the publication of the fights on YT

- Liza as the organizer for the excellent and sweaty organization of the individual fights - thank you very much for your patience until ILM made their decisions together democratically, often over long periods of time. Words can hardly be thanked for your effort.

- the teams/clans oKo, Сборная России, Team A and Team B for the challenging, exciting and fair fights in the tournament

- our sparring partners oKo, Team A, some players from the community (Puff, Ziggy, Slap and all others, who can hardly all be mentioned here by name) and WTF (with WhoamI and Rotten) for your support and exciting training units

- all the players who congratulated us on our victory

- and very special thanks to Orgi for starting the ILM clan (together with Niferu)

We had interesting weeks and in these Corona times there was something to look forward to in particular. I hope this community will continue to exist on this scale after the pandemic has leveled off and I personally find it very important that we stick here together. Q3 is more 20 years old, there wont be a flood of new players and the community will shrink in the long term. Lets keep this game alive, we all love it.

Thank you and stay healthy!