New maps?

[Agi]

I'm really happy with dm12! This map has big potential and it's so fun

[Agi]

You know that on 1.11-1.16 Quake 3 Arena version is server where they only run this on map? Hah. And it's really popular. Not telling name to not advertise other servers.

[adminless]

I know, over the years there has been a lot of just one map dedicated successful servers. my Open Arena server here for example only runs one map and for the most part it worked pretty good as long as that game was active of course. furthermore there was even entire mods that were virtually one map dedicated like Rocket Arena 3 for example. there you basically had two different dedicated servers, the ra3map11 (overkill) server and the ra3map1 (theatre of pain) server. but there has been also the opposite situation, the brain death raging kid that started a new dedicated server on a whim with +20 maps to "stand out" where all of them but one were shit. that in my opinion was as bad if not worse (that's really more of a map pool rather than a "rotation").

to me both policies are terrible. I believe that best rotations are those that are short, of course not too short, but really good. as I see it the current rotation here is probably a good compromise between both, at least for the most part. anyways just wondering what are your thoughts about this "new" q3dm12 map?

so far synthetic game analysis don't seem that good but at least it wasn't as terrible as last time that I was obliged to enforce a map change. it looks like most of the time that map last between 20-35 minutes which is at the very high end of the pool but somehow within "acceptable" values. as usual with any change (I remember when I first introduced q3dm11 people hated it times ten) it angered some but it was also welcomed by some other ones, then that's also normal to some extend. I believe that may be after the gameplay readjustment over the last seasons and the grow in skill of the room it may be possible that this time ended up just barely working out. then I don't know, giving the circumstances that the rotation is short on high loads and that at the end of the day its chances of loading are just expected of a couple of times a day I believe that the most fair is just to leave it by now at least for some time for further review.

[Dr.GreenThumb]

I'm itching to try this new map, didn't get lucky last night to try it

[adminless]

ok then hurry up because I'm starting to seriously consider removing it hahaha the map has a +60% quit chance (I haven't measure the other ones but I'm sure that's the top) and on top of that the map suffer from terrible pace. yes although many times it converge in acceptable terms plenty of other times is crap with +45 minutes games and virtually almost any match has various +5 (almost 10) minutes rounds. that's total crap, that's several standard deviations away from the mean of fast paced games this particular game is known and appreciated for.

synthetic game analysis seems to show that that map generalely converge for the "average" match of current "average" players, understood for that as the usual hyped match of good players that play in a "fun"/"light" competitive way, but it fails misserabely other way. in particular at matches of both ends of the spectrum, that's it for bellow average players (i.e. 50% of the players) and the top guys playing in a competitive/over-competitive manner (10%).

my opinion is that is probably better to just remove it, is not worth all the trouble beside at the end rather than make the rotation more varied it makes it less as it sticks for way longer than a "normal" map.

[serca]

> the map has a +60% quit chance (I haven't measure the other ones but I'm sure that's the top) and on top of that the map suffer from terrible pace
Of course it is on the top for quits per map, because it is the map with the longest timings. Wouldn't it be better to measure quits per minute to get the real map popularity?

Anyway this map definitely has some changes in the dynamic last few days. Players had no idea how to play it in the beginning: most of freezed bodies in the center and pretty free armor room. Now the armor is much harder to get and we have a lot of action on periphery.

Imho, it is a good map for 20+ players, especially when we have just 2-3 maps for the full server.
Overkill would be better, but it is not in pak0.pk3.

[adminless]

it's the same. +60% of the people quit anyways on the few instances it converged on "normal" terms and most of the people that connected afterwards don't last more than 5-10 minutes either likely after find out that they can't score shit or that they are frozen for minutes. truth to be to told is that it loads for 20 players but typically only finish it 7-10 of the players that started it regardless of the situation.

well may be because most are not "professional"/competitive a-like players? look I just don't know but if after more than twenty years most people "don't know" how to play it, it's highly unlikely that they are going to learn it just now. nowadays people generalely doesn't join the server to go all the trouble and work to learn something new, they did that as teenagers already. nowadys, as adults, probably they just join to play and enjoy what they arleady know. also btw if they know shit about a standard map played since the beginning much less they are going to know something about overkill for example let alone other custom maps.

also like I said keep in mind that although there's just a couple of maps for big loads this dm12 thing is locking the server at prime times for hours essentially while with the other maps at least rotate. so basically it doesn't even end up making the rotation any more varied, now you look up the server at prime time and know with almost a 50% chance that is gonna be dm12. that's something I haven't figured out but it's dedinitively no good.

anyways like I said, it's not like I'm going to remove it right away but the map parformance is poor. ok is not as terrible as last time that there wasn't even doubts about it but is nevertheless very questionable. as I see it I believe that is a map that only clearly benefit the top players (i.e. a 10%) at the expense of significantly hurt the regular casual player (i.e. the 50%) while even for the rest (i.e. the semi-competitive/friendly skilled players, a 30-40%) it doesn't even reliably works all the time.

like I said, I would like to hear more input on this.

[WhoAmI]

What can i say. Hmmm.

In one sentence: I absolutely dominate it.

And now a longer statement.
I know I have a lot of fun with it but I'm not alone here. I have to consider everyone. I can play it. I get a lot of points and I don't die practically. I can live long. Cool for me!

I played it maybe 5-6 times because I don't have much time right now. Only after the weekend I will try more often. Overall, at the end I usually have +90 points and other players 10 -40. I think that the map has many pros and cons.
There are many people who are waiting for it to load, but many do not want it. Mainly weaker players don't want it. They just can't play it. It was visible from the beginning. Nobody picks RA, YA, MA. Mainly me and several players Many players enter the water. I don't understand why, since it is a sudden death in the water.


Pros / Advantages:

- Something new,
- Is very large,
- Perfect for 22 players. There is a lot of space. The only map on which I feel free. I feel a lot of space.
- Great for those who like Rail Gun
- It's interesting and pretty. Some players like to hide on it and just play.
- No grenade spam, no RL spam. Players must play more carefully. You have to think more.
- You can't shoot anywhere
- Long map duration 20 - 45 minutes (it's a plus for me, I can get more points )
- The map loads rarely. It's also a plus for those who don't like her


Cons / Disadvantages:

- Weak players don't know how to play it (it's getting better)
- Players who like spam from grenade launchers, RL do not shoot like on other maps.
- Long rounds.
- If you die, you have to wait longer


DM14:
Pros:
- Empty. What's wrong with me? Error!

Cons:
- all, infinity, factorial!

Funny!

Maybe it would be a good idea to set a lower priority so that it appears less frequently. She would be so special. For these better players. Then so many people would not complain. For me it is a great map. I don't fall into random grenades and rockets.
Recently, when I played it twice, the map ended after 22 minutes. The map didn't last that long. If people don't defrost and stand in one place, it will last a long time.

Admin, you can try several options. There is no tragedy. I'm glad you added it. Ever since, everyone has been writing to ask me about other maps like "Overkill". But in this situation the matter is clear. No way. Anyway, who could play Overkill? This is an open map. Typically aim. Weak players would have nowhere to hide. The duel at the top begins on the overkill. It's like in Clan Arena mode. Of course, great for me. You can add hehehe

These are just my thoughts. They may not be good, but honest and true

For the horde!

[adminless]

yes your review essentially coincides with my synthetic observations of the map. the only problem with that is that as I noted the "weak players" are the majority while the "top players", as even their own name implies, are the minority and I must run this for the majority. yes I know, like I said most of the time the map converges. I made that most bold precisely to stand out that, that many other times (around a 30%) it doesn't, with +40 minutes games, endless (5-10 minutes) rounds and stuff like that. that's probably my major concern. also note that some "random" people liked it just because is "new" and who doesn't like "new" stuff? which to be honest is plain bullshit. as one user very adequately replied, "well new shoes can be painful too". so let's see how it does after the "new" thing wears off.

anyways in one thing I was wrong so far no massive waves of complains have reached and there haven't be a major massive drop in players so I guess I can leave it for some time and not worry that much by now. anyways yes so far as I look at it I beleive that what I'm gonna do is precissely that, lower a bit its load chances since as I noted on my last message, I failed to realize that that map (potentially) last for two "normal" maps therefore if I made it that it loads a "couple" of times that equals in reality at least to three or more of the other "normal" maps. problem with that is that if I cut it too much it may not load sufficiently enough so it's a complacated matter.

anyways I'll keep analyzing data and doing my best.

[serca]

> endless (5-10 minutes) rounds

Btw, there is 'camp in lava' bug in the room with yellow armor on this map. Same as it was for dm11.

[...jutuli...]

I like this map too. As WTF said, there i a lot of space, nobody shoot rockets to my back constantly and map needs some "thinking" to play. Only one disadvantage (my own one) - rounds and whole game are much longer and usualy I lose my concentration at the end of game. But definitely fun and change from the routine.

[adminless]

@serca yeah I know, I already noticed the other day that random "skilled" player showing up his "skills" at being a pain at exploiting the game. anyways not even worth a ban as I hope I can patch that within these days (just like I finally did some months ago for dm11). however to my knowledge that only took place once so the rest of the 5-10 minute rounds were legit. thanks for report.

ok, no problem, like I said, I just balanced the map ratios a little yesterday to account for the big temporal difference between dm12 and the rest and so far I think I can just leave it there at least for some "time" (i.e. months and so) and if so it will just be re-evaluated at a later time as with everything else. btw also relaunched the polls at this forum to reflect this addition so please hang out by there and recast your votes (which yes requires registration as on public votes "anyone" can vote which it even includes multi-voting or bots for example).

[WhoAmI]

I think lower priority would be the best. Deleting the map would be sad.
I wonder how it would be in the case of the DM15 map. Only she is small. I think not for 22 people. 12-16

[adminless]

yes don't worry, I agree with that. though it may upset some it's nevertheless welcomed by various other ones so it will stick and it's just a matter of find the right ratios. seems like the best/most fair option. btw just patched the pit bug now, let me know if it ever takes place (note, the patch won't take effect until tomorrow).

[umofd]

more maps are always welcome imho.

best maps to me are the quake live ones like trinity, quarantine, almost lost etc. i even found a q3 server running a qlplus mod but it's only FFA and never populated.
but i read here this server won't run any maps that are not basic q3 since there's no autodownload and some other reasons.

how about maps like longest yard or hellsgate? or maybe enable some vote function to change unwanted maps? like if dm12 loses a ton of players vote and change map early?