Hub is messed up

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RH
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Hub is messed up

Post by RH »

On the duel server, hub3aeroq3 is messed up with map overrides for some reason. Yellow is a green, there is an added yellow by mega, and it has two extra spawns.

Better to just keep the q3 duel maps unmodified. It seems to take the armor layout of cpm22, and adds the spawns of the QL aerowalk. If you want to play cpm22 with vq3 you can, just have to corner clip the RA jump. If you want ql aerowalk, there is a direct port with ql_aerowalk.pk3. Nonsense changes.
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Re: Hub is messed up

Post by adminless »

I think it's evident it's not a "glitch" or something, they are intentional changes. both the cpm22 items and ql spawns seemed like a improvement over the base map to me so I just mixed them there so you can basically play cpm22 items with ql spawns in the vq3 geometry as you noted.
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Re: Hub is messed up

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adminless wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 9:14 I think it's evident it's not a "glitch" or something, they are intentional changes. both the cpm22 items and ql spawns seemed like a improvement over the base map to me so I just mixed them there so you can basically play cpm22 items with ql spawns in the vq3 geometry as you noted.
It changes how the map is played. The people who play duel do not appreciate that sort of change.

If you wanted to play with cpm22 items, you can just play cpm22. If you wanted to play with ql spawns, you can just play ql aerowalk. Hub is different. If I vote up hub3aeroq3, I want to play hub3aeroq3, not what adminless thinks hub3aeroq3 should be. You basically made it so it is impossible to play the real quake3 version of aerowalk on your server, for absolutely no benefit.

You aren't a duel player and don't understand how these changes impact the flow of the map. Not sure why you would make these changes at all. Not the first time you have made changes without understanding. Already added that god awful double jump to the server which severely fucks up several REALLY important routes on the most played maps (ex going ra to pg to mh on dm6, double jumping on the stairs hits your head on the bridge and fucks up the movement slowing you down), AND allows for things that were never possible on the maps in any other iteration of quake and were not how the maps were intended to be played. EDIT: Another fucked up route on an important map is q3dm13 upper YA to LG through mid, you can't do a normal jump on the stairs to space it out properly to hit the little bump that lets you get onto the higher ledge, so you have to go slow up the stairs and jump at a different angle severely slowing down a really important and commonly used route on a regular duel map.

There is no target audience for these changes. A QL player or CPM player is not going to join and say "Oh nice the QL spawns are here!", you just make the Q3 players pissed because the map is changed. The exact opposite is more likely true where many players have said previously on other modified servers trying to be like QL that they would rather just go play QL in that case. I have actually had people just leave on your duel server because the physics were just very slightly different from an OSP server, more than once. Most people who play 1v1 in q3 already will not touch your server because of these small changes, and people who used to have stopped because the small changes keep coming and it is straying farther from the q3 they want to play. People who play duel do not want modified bullshit.

Don't make the server any more of a joke than it already is, please. I don't enjoy coming on here to point out the obvious that actual players that play actual quake do not enjoy random uninformed game changes. I just want to play quake3, not whatever the fuck you think q3 should be.
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Re: Hub is messed up

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quite frankly I think I have made it very clear already several times, while I do in fact appreciate your input and reviews I never cared about any hardcore q3 freaks that get this completely fuck up over any minor changes and I never will. that 0.1% has never been the target of these servers. you say you don't enjoy coming here, ok, don't do it then. for the rest it had not been because of all those changes among others and UnFreeZe wouldn't be what it's today, matter of fact, it wouldn't even exist. beside don't forget that next to the duel server (and before it) there's also a proper 100% canonical osp duel server that sucks times ten so your argument that canonical better doesn't even hold any water.
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Re: Hub is messed up

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adminless wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 15:36 quite frankly I think I have made it very clear already several times, while I do in fact appreciate your input and reviews I never cared about any hardcore q3 freaks that get this completelly fuck up over any minor changes and I never will. that 0.1% has never been the target of these servers. you say you don't enjoy coming here, ok, don't do it then. for the rest it had not been because of all those changes among others and UnFreeZe wouldn't be what it's today, matter of fact, it wouldn't even exist. beside don't forget that next to the duel server (and before it) there's also a proper canonical osp duel server that sucks times ten so your argument that canonical better doesn't even hold any water.
If the OSP server was unlag, then I'd play on it. If there were OSP servers in america, I'd play on them. The most popular duel servers globally BY FAR are the q3msk osp servers, but I can't play on those with >150ms ping and no unlag.

You say people who want to play quake3 are 0.1%, but the people you are making changes for are 0%. They don't exist. No one wants changes. Quake3 is 25 years old and people are still playing it because they want to play quake3. People do not want to play whatever adminless thinks quake3 should be.

Your changes do not make your servers better. They make it worse. A majority of people look down on your servers and mod. Many people don't play it because they think it's trash. Any time you make changes, people tell you it sucks. Nobody tells you they love it. You don't understand the game enough to make drastic changes like that.

The ONLY reason I play on your servers is because other people do. There is at least 4 or 5 other mods and 10+ other servers i'd rather play on instead. I have conversations with people all the time about how they hate unfreeze, but they still play because people show up. No one likes unfreeze but begrudgingly shows up because it's too difficult to get everyone to go play somewhere else.

You are not making improvements to the game. You are just making it worse. Every time you make a change, people complain and nobody actually likes it. Your entire strategy of making changes is to shove your fingers in your ears and hope the complaints stop.

Still gave absolute zero reasoning why you made it impossible to play the actual hub3aeroq3 on your server. If you don't like hub so much that you completely change the map, then just remove it from your server and run the ql_aerowalk map instead. If I vote hub3aeroq3, it is because I want to play hub3aeroq3 and not whatever the fuck adminless who doesn't duel thinks hub3aeroq3 should be.'

People want q3, give them q3. You are not the second coming of Carmack or Romero. It baffles me this is even a discussion, because all you have to do is actually listen to players.
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Re: Hub is messed up

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zero reasoning, the fuck you talking about, I think I clearly answered you that in my first message, didn't I? I saw the cpm22 items and ql spawns and found they were a improvement over the standard ones to me. the one who didn't give any other reasoning over why the cpm22 items (not really mine btw) and the ql spawns (once again, not really mine and also canonical these last btw) are so terrible and completely fuck up your entire game beside "fanaticism" (i.e. because they are not strictly base hub) is you. ok, fantastic, go play somewhere else and stop pretending this becomes something else I never said it was at once. I insist, it has never been my intention with any of the servers I've ran across the years (not just these ones) to please any hardcore q3 freaks and I never pretended it otherwise so you're not even really making any sense with that.
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Re: Hub is messed up

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adminless wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 16:42 zero reasoning, the fuck you talking about, I think I clearly answered you that in my first message, didn't I? I saw the cpm22 items and ql spawns and found they were a improvement over the standard ones to me. the one who didn't give any other reasoning over why the cpm22 items (not really mine btw) and the ql spawns (once again, not really mine and also canonical these last btw) are so terrible and completely fuck up your entire game beside "fanatism" (i.e. because they are not strictly base hub) is you. ok, fantastic, go play somewhere else and stop pretending this becomes something else I never said it was at once. I insist, it has never been my intention with any of the servers I've ran accross the years to please any hardcore q3 freaks and I never pretended it otherwise.
You just made it impossible to play hub3aeroq3 on your server. You can only play the adminless version of hub3aeroq3. If you thought those changes were good, then just have the ql aerowalk version of the map.

If some one practices hub3aeroq3 for thousands of games, their positions and strategies are built around the spawns and armor placements as they are in the map. You go and change that to be some oddball thing that ONLY exists on your server, and nobody wants to play it because it isn't like other servers and isn't like any other version of hub and it isn't what they played before. If you want to make your own version of aerowalk then make your own version of aerowalk and don't replace hub3aeroq3.

The added spawns really fuck up hub3aeroq3 in the way it plays because what is different about hub compared to QL aerowalk is mainly two things: less armor, and less spawns. It has very minimal spawns which leads to a lot of spawn fragging, that has been the most standout feature of hub since it was created. The two added spawns will spawn the enemy player in spots that are more out of sight to basically pull the fun out of getting a spawn frag string on the map for the player in control. You could say spawn fragging is bad or something, but that's just how the map has been played since it was created. The way the Q3 spawns work compared to QL, it works out fine. If QL had less spawns, it would be a fucking nightmare because you could just force them to spawn in the same spot over and over which you see some times on CPMA.

The armor changes completely fuck up the map because it adds more armor, which helps the player in control more than anything, and it also moves the yellow next to the mega which is a way more punishable spot and makes playing out of control even harder. The one time I played the dumb modified version, I was able to completely abuse this fighting over mh/ya and keeping my opponent pinned in the GL area where they only had a GA. The reason it is that way in cpm22, is because that is meant for cpma where the green gives you 50 and the YA gives you 100 and it has tiered armor with much faster movement possible and you don't really play down in the bottom of the GL area as much. The reason any difference at all is because the original aerowalk for quakeworld was much more centered around playing the YA with instant 150 + MH versus the higher position RA which is a completely different play style. The biggest difference with cpm22 though is that the GL area is upsized a lot, which really impacts how playing on that side of the map turns out even if you don't have armor.

Hub3aeroq3 doesn't play like ql aerowalk. That is a good thing. They are different takes on the same map. I like QL aerowalk and play that version on other servers some times, but if I vote hub3aeroq3 I want hub3aeroq3.

Hub, the map author, actually made all 3 versions of the map. He didn't REPLACE hub3aeroq3 when he made cpm22. Even when cpm22 existed, everyone just played hub3aeroq3 for vq3 and cpm22 for cpma, for DECADES. When he went and made the QL aerowalk version for syncerror, he merged the two versions of his map together and added spawns to create a slightly different gameplay style on the map because QL plays different, but it was the ONLY version of aerowalk in QL which is a completely different game and never affected the existence of hub3aeroq3 being the standard in Q3.

Take a theoretical scenario here: Some one sees a famous game of czm or someone playing hub3aeroq3 on LAN in a tournament on youtube, thinks it looks fun, goes out and downloads Q3 and connects to a duel server and votes up the same map. But now the map is different? Well that sucks. Okay guess I can't play the same thing the guy in the video played so I'll just go back to playing QL or something. People want to play quake3, not what adminless thinks q3 should be.

You are making changes to maps you don't understand for a game mode you don't understand in a game you really don't understand. You do not know better than the players. You are just fucking it up. All you have to do is leave it as it was and not make changes. Why even host quake3 servers if you hate quake3?
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Re: Hub is messed up

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dude I think you just answered yourself and knew the answers yourself so I don't even get why all the drama/hating and coming here so fucked up. yes, a big part of the original map strategy revolves around spawn raping which is not that cool for the receiving end so when I was testing the ql physics I found that those couple of extra spots helped tone down a bit that aspect. same with the items, the original is too cantered around the ra area and it even becomes often campy because of that so I found the cpm22 items to be more balanced and overall more open meaning better play. needless to say you hate those changes to the core, that's clear and totally fine, but that's a very different history and thing is that as I have told you also a ton of times do not think that it's like I need your approval (or that of any other hardcore q3 fanatic) or anything to run any servers. while I take input from anyone, you included, I ultimately run servers as I see fit and I insist I've always been very clear about it.
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Re: Hub is messed up

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adminless wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 17:31 dude I think you just answered yourself and knew the answers yourself so I don't even get why all the drama/hating and coming here so fucked up. yes, a big part of the original map strategy revolves around spawn raping which is not that cool for the receiving end so when I was testing the ql physics I found that those couple of extra spots helped tone down a bit that aspect. same with the items, the original is too centered around the ra area and it even becomes often campy because of that so I found the cpm22 items to be more balanced and overall more open meaning better play. needless to say you hate those changes to the core, that's clear and totally fine, but that's a very different history and thing is that as I have told you also a ton of times do not think that it's like I need your approval (or that of any other hardcore q3 fanatic) or anything to run any servers. while I take input from anyone, you included, I ultimatelly run servers as I see fit and I insist I've always been very clear about it.
Spawn fragging goes both ways. Everyone gets spawn fragged. Adding more spawns doesn't stop spawn fragging. It just makes it really fucking annoying for the player in control, and adds some RNG for the player out of control hoping they spawn in a "safe" spot. The only reason QL added more spawns is because the spawn system is COMPLETELY different, and you can literally just force some one to spawn in the same spot over and over with the lower amount of spawns. That does NOT happen in Q3 and cannot happen because the spawn system is based on death location. Like if you kill some one jumping to red, turn to your right and spawn frag them at the upper RL, they can just spawn right on the red and fuck you up. They are different games.

The changes you made to the armors makes it WORSE for the player not in control and you don't even realize that. You don't play duel, you don't have the knowledge base or experience in order to make these changes yourself.

If you want to make adminless-aeroq3 then go right ahead. I could not care any fucking less. I'm just asking that you not make it impossible to play the actual hub3aeroq3 on your server.

Also you didn't implement QL movement. The double jumps that are possible on unfreeze are NOT possible in QL. They are also NOT possible in cpma. They aren't possible anywhere else. Your custom movement system is just dumb bullshit from some one who doesn't want to learn vq3 movement. The jumps were never intended by the map authors. You sit there and post video clips of "intended" jumps, but they aren't even possible in the game the maps were made for. The biggest difference between Q3 and QL movement isn't even the double jumps, its the gravity and ground acceleration.

The unfreeze unlag netcode is already bad enough to make the server almost completely unplayable by itself. All these small changes are just eliminating any chance of real players wanting to play on it.

You don't play duel, why are you even fucking with it? The person who plays the most on the server is telling you it sucks. The server wouldn't even exist if me and a couple other guys didn't ask for an unlag duel server. The other players who asked don't want anything to do with it now. Other duel players don't want to play on the bullshit server because it's modified and you can't compare apples to apples with any other q3 server. I used to occasionally see some other decent players show up, but they don't show up anymore. Nobody who actually plays quake likes your changes.
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Re: Hub is messed up

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well apparently you at least do care enough as to get this completely fucked up almost 24 hours after playing that map once and to keep spamming this with all the same none sense shit over and over like if that would lead you somewhere. well, let me tell you this in case it wasn't clear enough already, it won't so stop spamming and wasting my time.
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Re: Hub is messed up

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adminless wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 18:09 well apparently you at least do care enough as to get this completely fucked up almost 24 hours after playing that map once and to keep spamming this with all the same none sense shit over and over like if that would lead you somewhere. well, let me tell you this in case it wasn't clear enough already, it won't so stop spamming and wasting my time.
I get it. You don't like hub3aeroq3 so you wanted to change it to be something you like.

I like hub3aeroq3. I just want to play hub3aeroq3 and not the version you molested.

I fucking hate t4, don't see me going around saying it should have an LG and RA added so I'd like the map more. That's fucking stupid. Other people like t4 for some reason, that's fine. Just because I hate the map, does not mean I'm going to go out of my way to make it so OTHER people who like it can't play it.

If you want to have a fucked up version of aero with your almost zero understanding of duel, then fine. Make it a different map. There is zero sense in making it impossible to play the standard q3 aero on your duel server just because you are sad about getting spawn fragged.

Honestly it sounds like what you actually need to do is go watch some demos from players like cooler playing hub. Maybe you'd actually learn something about how duel is played, or how the map is played instead of saying "spawn frag bad!" and fucking it up for everyone else.

AGAIN, you don't play duel. Why are you even fucking it up?
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Re: Hub is messed up

Post by Lewd »

There's a different problem with the hub edit, it crashes the game for me saying "Bad index 36 for entity".

Why not just allow cpm22 itself? It's not that hard to get RA there even in vq3 and the entire layout is improved. The tele issue could be fixed by slightly raising the relevant misc_teleporter_dest and rotating it a little
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Re: Hub is messed up

Post by adminless »

that error has nothing to do with the edit or the server, once again, as with the models/sounds that's another client issue. that just means that you're using a client that doesn't support the green armor (example vq3). cpm22 or any other map that would feature a green armor, edited or not, would "crash" all the same for you.
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Re: Hub is messed up

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Oh you're right, it looks like my osp folder was empty. Somehow I could still connect to osp servers as long as they didn't have a green armor anywhere.
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Re: Hub is messed up

Post by Lewd »

Renewing my request to add cpm22 to the vote pool anyway since it's different enough from hub and there's other cpma maps in there already. If we're tough enough to do cpm24, or worse, cpm15 with vq3 movement we might as well have that too.