UnFreeZe Super League 2023, Second Leg

UnFreeZe Super League 2023, Second Leg - Immortal Clan First Place
Heero-2b
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Re: UnFreeZe League 23/24

Post by Heero-2b »

I'm sorry, but I just don't understand.

Why OLC? because he once said he wanted a challenge? That's subjective. Then why don't you take out ILM Blaze, OkO Ami, Ass Ricky and Comunity Fau? What's the difference?

As you can see, and as I've shown you, and as I'm sure you can do the math yourself, team ranks are virtually the same, ranging from 7.4-7.7K, unless we're talking about DT. This eliminating players based on subjective feelings (not even numbers, unfortunately) is simply unfair. Okay, so make a rule that depending on the rank of each player, each team can have a max rank of 7.2K for all players when they sign up. And it will be a clear rule and then no one will be able to argue. And that will make your dream of balancing teams come true. Now it's balanced based on your feelings.

Second thing:

I know there are a lot of players who only come to play unfreeze league (I'm not saying that's bad), otherwise they are inactive or not active all the time. I mean, if someone comes in after half a year and competes against players who play regularly, whether on your servers or elsewhere, it's clear that they're missing the train a little bit.
I would hate to see activity punished and passivity rewarded. This is just a point to ponder, no need to respond.

The numbers speak clearly, and you haven't provided a single relevant argument here, unfortunately.
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Re: UnFreeZe League 23/24

Post by fau »

Hey, I know the scores on teddm1 and blood looked bad for us but we've got specific plans and lineups for these maps and we weren't able to bring a lineup that usually plays them yesterday. Also we dropped the ball a bit when it comes to practice recently. I think if we had a full lineup to choose from - as team immortal did - we could put up a challenge on these maps as we did on teddm1 in our first game.
All things considered I'm very happy with how hub went and congratulations to all my teammates for fighting hard there :D
ggs wp.

I don't want to get into discussion about balancing now, maybe let's discuss it after the league (or before next one!) when everyone cools off.

I'm more concerned about bringing more players to competition in a manner enjoyable for them, wouldn't worry about team community - we've been put against greater odds in the past :) I commend DT for signing up but I feel sorry they had such a rough ride. We didn't have better players/skills when we started as community but it was back when opposition was easier and we got some wins to boost up our interest in competing.
Last edited by fau on Fri Dec 08, 2023 13:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UnFreeZe League 23/24

Post by adminless »

@heero wtf I think that may be you got lost in the length of my previous post and missed it so just to make sure I'll sort it again for you:
adminless wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 12:03 dude just answer your own buddy bullshit "we need at least 3 (4) players to secure a decent fight and i dont speak about winning games, i only speak about having a fair chance against the other teams" and "if there would be missing one, you guys will see a boring one sided match and i think nobody is interested in that" awesome now back it up and go and tell tell me for a fact that yesterday community had indeed a fair chance and that the fight wasn't just one sided boring as you're own buddy was putting it. at this point it doesn't come to any metrics/projections or anything, that's really all that needs to be tell about it as your own buddy is putting it himself, nobody is interested in that. [..]
it's not ok to come demanding any answers when you're providing none and straight up ignoring the facts (real results in this case). as I'm telling you at this point there's a lot more to the game than just synthetic stats particularly the individual skills points in the ranked site I guess you're referring to that pretty much just doesn't add up like that and aren't even uniform (i.e. newcomers enter with 800 point meaning shantu real rating is a lot higher, crm rating is a lot lower due all the over history, same with you and olc that have previous lower ratings in other teams that affect the overall rating, generally not everyone has played everyone, people have built up points from previous less competitive events etc etc stuff that from what I see you're also gonna overlook/ignore as well). I wish it would be as simple as that and such a rule could be made but the reality is that it doesn't work like that as I'm showing you. in any case, don't worry that once this ends (so stats will be uniform) I'll post here all the stats for this and they will be reviewed/analyzed and then we'll see if some conclusion can be drawn from that. as for rewarding activity over inactivity I totally agree on that which is why I'm considering the eventual choice between olc and kf as none of them really have anything to do or are just active here and olc even had a entire team of his own he completely threw away just to team up with none other than a uncontested undipsuted undefeated super champion (just like you btw) behind the scenes under a fake nick so I'm pretty sure that if he really wants he can just make it on his own for another edition as he has even stated himself and not just once but various times.

@fau yeah I agree as usual I was just commenting for another potential edition so it doesn't come as surprise/unannounced/out of the blue later on. once again, I repeat, I'm not taking anything away from immortal, like for the fourth time already I think, congrats on a stellar and overpowering performance, and needless to say that this will obviously be finished the way it started but at the same time I also believe that it's important to already go raising this here.
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Re: UnFreeZe League 23/24

Post by Liza »

The teams got much stronger than they used to be 3 years ago. Teams take only outstanding players that are expected to boost their chances. Some teams even take out worst players from their teams. Huge rebalancing is needed. To do that I would have suggested not only introducing team's skill limit but also changing format for 1 season to cut it to 4v4. That will force clan's split and make things more interesting.

@heero there is a clear skill indicator, which is here https://ranked.fpsclassico.com/awardsta ... ID=fighter
I do not know how your blood test works but it is absolutely misleading you.
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Re: UnFreeZe League 23/24

Post by adminless »

well the fact that some things (i.e. the balance) could have been done better to which I agree doesn't mean that just because of a particular result the whole thing has been a disgrace (ex. on top of that even add miro to which I did obviously react, I might have not do great but at least I did not do terrible) and huge/dramatic changes are needed. no things don't work like either so beside negotiating/mediating a change here and there at its time (which is not gonna be now of course) like the one mentioned of olc/kf or similar stuff that overall works for everyone involved I don't think any major drastic/dramatic changes to the format will overall apply. as said once the whole thing ends the entire thing will be reviewed and evaluated and we will see if some conclusion can be drawn out of it for potential future improvement as usual but whatever the case is what can already be said despite that is that even with the 86.7% of the season complete (i.e. 26 out of 30 total fights) the championship is still in the air so the season have made it alive at least until the 27 fight out of 30 (90%) with the potential of even make it all the way to the very last fight if oKo pulls off a 2:0 this Sunday which I repeat although unlikely it's by no means something "impossible". overall that tells you that it hasn't done that bad even in that regard and even considering Теам Приде, that were a big part of the overall balance, has declined to participated and I believe that it overall has played great and it probably has been one of the best editions.

I agree that one of the biggest issues (in the long run) is having perfectly competitive teams (that I always promoted and supported btw) like the 2022 seventh place Team Over30 and none other than the 2021 fifth place Команда Сообщество that topped the current runner ups ass in a fifth place final that it's still being talked till this day by their respective leaders heero and loverex just to team up together with a uncontested undisputed undefeated super champion it's something that it only takes away from the game and alienates the rest of the teams instead of adding anything but unfortunately that's just the way it's and there's really nothing that can be done about it (other than just not accept it of course as each agreement has two ends) as you don't get to decide that. the real thing is that there's even actually at least two or more other competitive teams that could be built up just with the people that got left out alone (ex. just starting by pride) and that could have perfectly participated so it you look at it the thing doesn't even really make much sense. anyways as for running a 4vs4 variation I don't think that would work as first that would just completely break like half the map pool (ex. if cpm4a is hardly playable 5vs5 image 4vs4) and in reality it would just lead to even more unbalance as its a lot easier to slip four top players than five and also the impact of individual skill is higher in 4vs4 than in 5vs5 so it's not gonna work like that either. as said, I believe that the overall format is good in that regard.
Heero-2b
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Re: UnFreeZe League 23/24

Post by Heero-2b »

admin: I still don't understand why OLC is any different than Fau, Ami, Blaze or Ricky ? I still haven't gotten an answer to that.

Heck this is no Esmeralda (soap opera) to look into the past, who was with who, and who left who....Looking into the past doesn't help anyone.

But it'll probably sort itself out with the new team building rule.

I'll be honest with you about the OVER30 team. I'd probably rebuild it, but I don't want to because d4widov and noobzord aren't active, I'm not interested in playing with people who only come to the event, in short it's my decision to tolerate.

I think we have a lot of data, or admin, and it can be really good to work from. Now we have data from other events mixed in, but I think that can be sorted. I think this is a really good opportunity to make future events more transparent and set really clear rules for everyone.

In that case, a reasonable person cannot afford to play Oko with a team of Ami, CTH, catahulele, magister and whoever.
Now why aren't you talking about the fact that oKo could have been first if it didn't have contumacy once? Has that been forgotten? If oKo had won the whole tournament, would you have addressed frai play with their team?
apparently we are the only problem here, don't you find it strange when we could have been in second place and the team in first place? Why don't you answer these questions? Let's not talk about the past and deal with shit, let's show me the current situation.


Fau:
What don't you understand? It's from these "skill" stats - https://ranked.fpsclassico.com/index.php
Which I suppose is the result of the other stats. Taking it from your one stat seems pretty half-baked to me. Which isn't to say that mine is some sort of salvation, especially since I don't even know what all "skill" entails. But it's certainly more comprehensive than yours : )

By the way, you had the best chance of winning yesterday because I came in drunk from a Christmas party and played the biggest shit. I was rank max 1300 at the time... :D So you're right, it was really misleading. Guess you need to work on your multiplayer tactics ;)


I'd still like to come back to the DT clan that was mentioned here. That's where I put them. Because I talked Drummi into signing up. I don't think DT is the same clan that entered the tournament now. They have gained a lot of experience and their players have really improved. KF and I have offered a helping hand. We can train together, I can give advice, whatever, no one has approached me in all this time. The only thing I saw was swearing in chat when we played (which we saw afterwards in GTV - video).
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Re: UnFreeZe League 23/24

Post by kf »

you simply have no clue thats all. if community would have bring snek and ribx at the games would have looked in another way, still they were able to defeat us at hub by 1 round. replace snek for a not-knowing-map-lee at ted especially and replace a bad-day-having-semi with ribx, you would have seen a totally other match but unfortunately i guesss they had no time and you blame us for that which is really idiotic.
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Re: UnFreeZe League 23/24

Post by adminless »

@heero obviously olc is no (significantly) different from any of those other guys, the difference doesn't lie in him if not on the people that plays with him (i.e. on the teams not on the players, it's not like I'm banning him or kf or anything). I don't think it's that hard to understand, look if I'd have to give a top 13 ranking now (which as I'd say it could vary in what last) based in observation it would probably go like this or pretty similar to this ami, olc, heero, ricky, infinity, kf, blaze, fau, ironmonkey, vrtx, aimer, shantu, crm. and as I know that now you're gonna say that I'm just making that shit up too and that there's clearly at least other 20 or 30 players much better than crm or shantu just to begin with and that your players are instead trash that couldn't even compete otherwise I also attach you here the output of the database I use for reference/base (not 1:1 as you can see but pretty much) of the best recorded players rank:

Code: Select all

+-----------------+------+------+------+------+
| player          | ppd  | ppg  | deff | acc  |
+-----------------+------+------+------+------+
| oKo*WhoAmI?!    | 2.05 | 22.3 | 57.5 | 28.8 |
| >!<HEERO-2B     | 1.57 | 18.8 | 54.4 | 32.6 |
| [ILM]Blaze      | 1.48 | 19.6 | 54.8 | 28.2 |
| >!<olc          | 1.46 | 19.3 | 54.9 | 29.3 |
| -=ASS=-Infin!ty | 1.45 | 16.8 | 54.7 | 33.8 |
| -=ASS=-RICKY!!! | 1.43 | 19.4 | 55.2 | 34.4 |
| aimer           | 1.42 | 18.1 | 50.8 | 26.1 |
| fau             | 1.39 | 19.3 | 53.4 | 33.7 |
| >!<KF           | 1.36 | 17.4 | 53.4 | 27.4 |
| [ILM]vrtx       | 1.36 | 16.7 | 53.7 | 31.4 |
| >!<Shantu       | 1.33 | 17.1 | 49.5 | 28.8 |
| [ILM]ironmonkey | 1.30 | 19.3 | 51.9 | 24.6 |
| >!<crm*         | 1.29 | 15.7 | 51.4 | 21.1 |
+-----------------+------+------+------+------+
as can be seen there your team have two of the best statistical and regarded top five active players of the tournament and three out of the top 10 and even five of the top 15 so now go and tell me exactly how that sits with the rest of the teams. as can be seen there most teams have between 1 and 3 players on that list while you have a entire line up that you obviously need to use in every game otherwise according to your buddy it's not that you wouldn't win is that it wouldn't even be necessary to be played as it would be a absolute mismatch from the start, I insist, in the own words of your own buddy ("if there would be missing one, you guys will see a boring one sided match"). yeah, explain me that so I can understand it now. as said, it will be evaluated at its time (which is not gonna be now) as things can vary but considering nothing significantly changes you obviously need to get rid of olc or kf as I suggested before to be accepted to participate in a future edition and I'm already being generous with that. it's not like I'm ripping you off or anything what your buddy is talking about is total rubbish as was shown yesterday for a fact, even without kf or olc, you would still end up with four consistent players out of the best 15 which is more than the rest and I repeat that most of those stats for your guys are even taken from previous eras where you played with lesser teams.

as for the rest as I'm telling you don't worry that once this ends I'll put together everything and it will be discussed/evaluated/reviewed further here in case you want to add up anything. when it comes to oKo as I said, that's the way things play but that doesn't take anything from what has been already written and I haven't even conditioned that balance to the final position. there's more to this than just some synthetic stats as I'm telling you things aren't that simple and it has been clear already that the overall feeling has been of unbalance and that if for some reason you would lost this it would come across as a upset and that's not the way it should be. wtf, it doesn't even make any sense that now you try to argue that when one of your guys (olc) has been rightfully calling it easy and complaining about the lack of challenge the entire season over and over. your own guys are making it pretty clear themselves.
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Re: UnFreeZe League 23/24

Post by kf »

maybe expand your list and look where the rest is sitting like masin or squiddy for example and also look where the rest of the other teams are. community showed at first leg that they really could be #1 also the games were super barely. but as said, they were missing 2 of their top players yesterday, what do you expect?

and btw you shouldnt take trashtalk serious, i dont understand how you really get those that serious for real :D
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Re: UnFreeZe League 23/24

Post by adminless »

@kf1 dude exactly where I blamed you for anything? yeah tell me exactly where. precisely anticipating that you were going to come up with that shit now is exactly why I made completely sure from the beginning to congratulate you on a stellar and overpowering performance and at no time taking anything away from your team. I think it's like the fifth time I have explicitly repeated that so nobody gets mislead here. I obviously have nothing to blame your team for, you have abide by the rules and I repeat once again you just have been the better team overall. the only one to blame for here is me that I sanctioned this and it has been proven that I just miscalculated which then I obviously have to account for in the event of a potential future edition otherwise it's not a "miscalculation"/error/mistake it's just pure negligence.

other than that, yeah I know, but as I said all this time that's exactly what's expected from a regular season and what I was expecting from your team as well when I approved such line up (that not every player was going to show up at each fight, engagement etc etc) but that just wasn't the case and therefore I'll have then to account for that. as you can see people just don't drag fights like that waiting for specific players only for the outcome and that's part of the competition which I insists you have done better than I had anticipated in that regard and that's the miscalculation I have to account for in the event of a potential future edition.
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Re: UnFreeZe League 23/24

Post by adminless »

@kf2 yeah I know but that's exactly why I sanctioned that. I sanctioned a eight players list not those five. the balance was accounting with them not casting them aside so if only those five or four of those as to meet with the rest of the regulations are really gonna play then I will have to act accordingly. the rest is already answered as I was writing my answer I guess so as I told you in-game, you shouldn't come here to waste anybody time with bullshit.
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Re: UnFreeZe League 23/24

Post by kf »

squiddy told us before the league even started that she might be never able to play at any thursday, so spoiler: you might will not see her at last upcoming game vs oKo.
yesterday masin was late and just joined voice when we were just playing at hub, i really wanted him to play at hub, because this map pretty much matches his common playstyle and would have been real fun for him, i think he almost told that he has no problem to skip the last 2 maps. we always discuss just at the games who plays and the question is all the time who WANTS to play this map or this map, i guess that any team does that in that case, as you also said the fun overall is rule #1. if masin would have say i really wanna play bloodcov or ted you would have seen him yesterday. these players always think about the team itself and if they dont feel like to play i will not force them, in that case as i just said before they are fucking awsome. i remember talking to walnut at last event like 3 or 4 days where we just searched for the best day that ASS IS READY with their best lineup they can get in vacation time. and i pretty much wanted them to bring ricky for sure, i could have said no we only can play at common day which admin determined, but im not such an ASS like many maybe expect me to be. maybe im missreading you like all the time im sorry but im not the only one who shares such thoughts in that case.
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Re: UnFreeZe League 23/24

Post by fau »

Heero-2b wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 18:05 Fau:
I think you're replying to someone else there. I've had enough flamewars, keep me out of it :D
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Re: UnFreeZe League 23/24

Post by adminless »

@kf dude I repeat your team has abode by the rules so it's not like you owe me any explanations or anything and there's even no point in now trying to overanalyze and micromanage this. the overall picture regardless of the details is that I miscalculated (i.e. I knew from the start I was setting up at least four top 15 players but as I said I did so expecting them not to really be active/show up in the long run just like everyone else btw [ex. ass, ex. community, ex. oko etc] but it wasn't finally the case) and therefore I'll have to account for that for future events (i.e. you will have to decide two from olc, heero, kf if you want to normally participate with the rest of the teams as that's the level as I'm showing you). I repeat that's not taking anything away from your team that's just the way it works. as I said, at least I didn't do anything grossly stupid as also adding miro to that list as you tried to sneak so I believe that it wasn't that bad after all.
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Re: UnFreeZe League 23/24

Post by PacMan »

All these teams presently should be split into two, then average players can join them , and it will make a better playing field, more teams yes bloods